Hook Hockey

29 Responses to “Badgers confirm drop from div two to four”

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   September 14, 2011 7:09 am
   Stompie says

   Steven,
   Any word on the rumour that bray ladies have asked to be demoted from Div 1.

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   September 14, 2011 7:10 am
   Seing double says

   Dejavu for Division 2!

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   September 14, 2011 7:24 am
   Stephen Findlater says

   @Stompie – A decision was reached regarding Bray’s request to move out of division one; clubs concerned are currently being informed of the outcome. Once that has been completed, I will post the details of the outcome on the site, hopefully later today

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   September 14, 2011 8:34 am
   Mastermind says

   Do not be surprised to see Mullingar withdrawing from Div 2 before the end of the season. Have lost 5 since last term.

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   September 14, 2011 8:43 am
   bertiebowl says

   The shambles of Div2 continues.

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   September 14, 2011 10:34 am
   Mastermind says

   It has to be opened up to Division 3 teams or we go to Senior/Junior league and have all 1′s in Senior leagues and all other teams in Junior leagues like Ulster. At the moment is that the jump from Div 4-2 is to big. Most Div 4 1st XI’s would beat the lower Div 3 2nd XI’s. But PW 2′s or Monkstown 2′s would hammer them.

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   September 14, 2011 10:40 am
   Captain Caveman says

   Back to the playing each other 3 times fiasco! Scottish Premier league here we come

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   September 14, 2011 12:24 pm
   fabianski says

   The irony here is that by not making it attractive to play in a particular league, players will continue to look to other sports or activities to spend their time. I’ve no doubt that Div2 will see some further casualties. I agree with Mastermind. The only way is to revert to the Senior/Junior model The truth is that teams need to find their own levels and not be forced to play in leagues just to make the numbers.

   At present we just seem to stumbling from one year to the next with no resolution to the issue. The branch need to ‘eat the frog’ on this one. However unpallatable it is.

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   September 14, 2011 1:58 pm
   Cian Denham says

   Thats a shame for Navan, although they didn’t take that many points last year they were in some very close battles and pushed the “bigger” teams to the wire regularly.

   John Dooley and the rest of the gang work very hard for the club and I hope they’re back in division 2 very soon, they’re a good bunch. Good luck to them in division 4.

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    September 14, 2011 2:12 pm
    anon says

    Proposals were submitted to the branch last year to form 3 senior divisions of 8 teams. No feed back was received however and the farce continues.

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    September 14, 2011 4:51 pm
    Chris Booth says

    Cian many thanks for the kind words. It’s nice to receive some acknowledgement for what Navan set out and tried to achieve over the past 4 seasons. With a good pre-season we had hoped that this would be our year to pick up a couple of wins against, the ‘big teams’ but unfortunately we were unable to keep our squad together. Hopefully we can rebuild and come back in a year or two. Until then I guess we must try and retain our player (rather than being a feeder club to the bigger clubs) and develop our youth players.

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    September 14, 2011 5:05 pm
    ideal says

    Stephen, perhaps you could find out if restructuring of leagues in this way has to be ratified by anyone other than the fixtures committee?

    It was great to see the league return to its 2 game home/away format. And now unfortunately we revert to a 3 match scenario for the 3rd season in a row.

    Its important to get as many games as you can into leagues but the three match scenario is far from ideal. Would be better to play each other 4 times. twice home, twice away.

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    September 14, 2011 10:22 pm
    Joe Dolan says

    “The only way is to revert to the Senior/Junior model The truth is that teams need to find their own levels and not be forced to play in leagues just to make the numbers.”

    @fabianski – Does that statement not contradict itself? As in, if we go to the senior/junior model of Ulster, are we left with a Div 3 ranging from Navan to Wicklow??? How do Wicklow find their level in this format??

    Or if we let them find their own level, then we have to open Div 3 so that say Navan and Mullingar could play Div 3 and let PW 3′s et al go up to Div 2. Now I know the top Div 2 sides wouldnt be happy with that, but surely theyd rather a full league home/away with good sides than going and hammering Div 2 whipping boys 8-0?

    I’m not having a go at you, just pointing out that as I see it, its an either/or Senior/Junior – finding own level debate. Personally, I favour the finding own level route.

    In the last few years, Kilkenny, Naas, St. Brendans, Skerries, Bray and Navan have all had to drop down. I think we would have kept some of those teams in Div 3 if it was open.

    I hope I am wrong, but if Mastermind is correct, Mullingar could be doing a Bray!! What are the branch at?? Do they realise that Hockey is played outside of Dublin?? Good regional clubs are getting nothing in terms of help and support from the branch. Its a fecking disgrace!!

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    September 15, 2011 10:05 am
    bertiebowl says

    I have a radical idea. The Div2 teams that are competitive i.e Avoca, Sutton, Trinity & Weston join an enlarged Div1 and the rest are scattered amongst the lower leagues. Scrap the Neville cup and play the Mills cup preseason.

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    September 15, 2011 10:49 am
    fabianski says

    @Joe Dolan.
    Thank you for clarifying. That’s exactly what I meant. Div3 should not be closed. All leagues open to all teams with the simple rule that no two teams from 1 club can be in the same league.
    What is required is a rethink of the entire league structure. .

    On the point of the stronger Div2 Teams being unhappy with 2nd Teams coming up to Div2. I think they would welcome it.

    Lastly, if a PW2 or Monkstown2 win the league then no team is automatically promoted. This would remove the all to familiar yo yo effect of teams up to Dvi1 to come straight back down. This is the way it use to operate. With a consolidated DIV2 of 10 teams the standard of games week in week out would be greatly improved and teams gaining promotion would be better prepared for Div1.

    To make all this happen with vested interests to manage would be a major undertaking. With DIV1 and DIV3 the way they are now it allows the stronger clubs to play their 1sts and 2nds back to back at the same venue which allows full squads for DIV1 games.

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    September 15, 2011 1:20 pm
    Really?? says

    @fabianski
    @Joe Dolan

    Firstly let me just say im not having a go or anything like that.

    For me it seems obvious that a junior and senior set up is the way to go. Ulster do it and it works better than Leinsters model. Does nobody follow the girls game? Seconds in the second division isn’t a good idea. The girls first division is stagnating at the bottom because teams can’t get relegated and the big clubs in the second division are being suffocated by the seconds. Like why would a player leave railway seconds to play trr firsts when there both in the same league? You need just senior teams in the second division as much so the first division teams can get relegated as the second div teams can get promoted. I mean corinthians girls didnt win a game last year and yet they can’t get relegated!! Bray ladies have dropped down to the third division because that is pretty much the only way to get out of that league, otherwise your just stuck out of your depth getting smashed every weekend until a) your club implodes or b)you eventually become worse than the fifth place team in the second division and loose that playoff

    I really don’t see what is so hard to figure out. The Ulster way is obviously the way to go.

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    September 15, 2011 2:02 pm
    @really says

    @really

    Completely agree. And prerhaps one step further.

    Senior 1, 2 and 3 for Senior teams. All three leagues for every clubs 1st team. No first teams outside of these leagues.

    Junior 1,2 for 2nds teams

    Minor leagues for everyone else (3rds, 4ths 5th s etc with no two teams from same club in same league)

    Ulster Model is a smaller model of above but is working well.

    Re Cups- abandon current system and have 1 cup for each league.Then one cup for all 1sts, all 2s etc

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    September 15, 2011 2:11 pm
    spencerontheedge says

    Could somebody explain this Senior/Junior model to me, I’m not fully sure what you mean? Are we not already using a Senior/Junior system?
    This brings the total number of threads on this subject to about 4 million since The Hook began, I think. Last season we asked the Branch to change the league format and they wouldn’t. Also, they couldn’t force teams like mullingar, portrane etc. into Div 2. They basically left it as it was, leaving it up to the teams themselves to find their way.
    I applaud Mullingar and Portrane on going up and wish them luck next year, hopefully they fare better than we did (The Badgers, that is).
    Don’t worry though, we’ll be back.

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    September 15, 2011 2:21 pm
    Cian Denham says

    “Really??” 100% agree with you, the likes of Navan and Kilkenny etc… have a much better chance of returning to the top flight if the Ulster setup is adopted.

    The 2ndXI in division II approach would only lead to a stunting of the development of the “smaller” clubs and damage the regional game.

    The 2ndXI sides are doing well, as is shown through the talent on display every week in division III and the strong representation in the Irish Junior Cup every year.

    I think the ladies also need to consider adopting the format. It would help surely help the likes of Genesis and Bray to hold onto their better players who believe they can make a push for division I rather than jumping ship.

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    September 15, 2011 2:22 pm
    Amalgamate!!!!!! says

    I think Navan and Mullingar should Amalgamate there firsts for this season and give it a good go in division 2………..?

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    September 15, 2011 4:33 pm
    bertiebowl says

    What happens if Mullingar and/or Portrane find the going too tough? Will Div2 drop to 5 teams??? Will being the best of 5 teams get you promoted and second of 5 teams get you a playoff?

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    September 15, 2011 4:55 pm
    Realist says

    No we are not using a Senior/Junior Model. Leinster kind of use it but not all the way through the leagues

    In a Senior/Junior Model only 1st teams play in ‘Senior’ leagues (1 & 2 or 1, 2 and 3- depending on how many clubs there are). Relegation and promotion entirely between these leagues so if you finish bottom of Div 3- you cannot get relegated)

    Lets say for arguments sake 3 ‘Senior Leagues’. The current Div 1 would remain the same. Current Div 2 would remain the same(ish) but filled with a few more 1st teams, and Div 3 would be remainder of all the other 1st teams (Skerries, Athy, Kilkenny etc).

    No 1st team would be allowed play in a lower league than Div 3.

    Junior 1, 2, 3 etc would be for 2nds teams

23. 
    
    

    September 15, 2011 6:44 pm
    shay says

    navan went from div 5 were they came 2nd in the league to div 2 – they should have been allowed to move up the leagues slowly getting experience playing against better players – for them to be thrown into div 2 was never a runner –

    as someone else said put the competitive part of div 2 into div one – and the remaining teams into their appropriate league standard

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    September 16, 2011 5:37 am
    joke!! says

    leinster hockey is a joke!!

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    September 16, 2011 1:13 pm
    PC says

    Navan went from 7th in division 4 to division 2 five seasons ago.

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    September 16, 2011 1:26 pm
    Brian Cleere (Rathgar HC) says

    Hi All,

    Only noticing this debate now. I’ve pasted the proposal sent by 5 division 2 clubs last February to Ronan Pelow and Ruby Morrow in the Leinster Branch (and is probably the third time I’ve posted this here).

    Just to echo Cian Denham comments above, it’s awful to hear about Navan dropping out. They were a great presence in Div 2 and will be sorely missed.

    In relation to some comments above, I think one thing has to be communicated to NON-division 2 players; the majority of players in Div 2 do NOT want seconds teams in the division. A strong factor in the affinity that players have with playing with a club who’s first team is outside Div 1 is the idea that the club can grown and develop to the standard that Div 1 teams have set. Obviously this is unrealistic for some of these clubs, but if we had a structure like the one proposed we could provide a reality whereby a club could climb the ranks in a number of years. In essence, this is one of the driving forces to why the Rathgar Chiefs was set up.

    If anyone of similar mind is keen to put forward a new proposal which should be acted on immediately, please drop me an email at cleereb@tcd.ie. This 3 match fiasco is far from ideal.

    EMAIL FROM FEBRUARY 28TH 2011
    “Dear Ruby / Ronan,

    By now, you should have hopefully received most proposals from clubs in relation to the future of Leinster Men’s Division 2. As you and the Branch will undoubtedly notice, there are a great deal of overlapping suggestions from all the interested parties, with some variances throughout. As a division, we have banded together to just further reiterate that we are all wholeheartedly behind the proposal of having Divisions 1 through 4 restructured to the following format:

    Division 1: 8 teams, comprising the current teams, minus the bottom two from this season.
    Division 2: 8 teams, current teams plus the two dropping from Div 1.
    Division 3 (new): 8 teams (Mullingar, Naas, Portrane, Brendans/Phoenix Park, Kilkenny, James Gate, North Kildare, Skerries)
    Division 4: 10 teams (Pembroke II,Monkstown II, Corinthan II,Trinty II, etc..)
    and so forth, down to 8

    As acknowledged by Mike Sexton in Ruby’s reply following the Rathgar Chiefs individual proposal, we are all very pleased to hear that the Branch intend on implementing any changes for the forthcoming 2011/2012 season. We feel that playing each other 3 times for a third successive season would do further damage to Div. 2 and look forward to a solution to the current problems experienced in the league and subsequent immediate action.

    Many thanks for the time taken to peruse all proposals and we look forward to hearing from you in the near future,

    Kind Regards,

    Brian Cleere – Rathgar Chiefs H.C.
    Carl Breadan & Stephen Fitzpatrick, Avoca H.C.
    Douglas Montgomery & Craig Moore, Dublin University H.C.
    John Glennon, Clontarf H.C.
    Ruairi Clarke, Navan H.C.”

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    September 18, 2011 8:21 pm
    Brian Cleere for Presidant! says

    Brilliant BRIAN just brilliant. We need to do this NOW! not next season.

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    September 19, 2011 5:23 pm
    delayed reaction says

    This was proposed last season and no response from Branch! So maybe it can be implemented in time for the 2015 season

29. 
    
    

    September 19, 2011 11:40 pm
    John Flannery says

    In response to the above

    Several proposals to restructure the leagues in particular Div 2 was debated at the last two AGMs of the Leinster branch and the decision of each meeting was to continue as is,

    It is the Club delegates at the meeting that determine the outcome and not the “Branch” . Indeed some clubs who were recorded as supporting the Rathgar letter disagreed with it.

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